RedCam Central Forum IndexRedCam Central Forum IndexRED EPIC Rentals
FAQ  •  Search  •  Memberlist  •  Usergroups  •  Register  •  Profile  •  Log in to check your private messages  •  Log in

  RedCam Central Forum Index » Feature Suggestions » Video Assist Options
View previous topic
View next topic

Reply to topic
 Video Assist Options
Author Message
RedCam Central
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 1640
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject: Video Assist Options Reply with quote

I would like to suggest placing high priority on giving Directors, DPs, and DITs many options for monitoring the output of the Camera. A wireless HD monitoring system would be an incredible option that would help seperate Red from other camera systems.

What do you think?

_________________
Casey Green
RedCam Central Founder
EPIC-M #5XX & #6XX - Rentals Now Available
IMDB Credits
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
RedCam Central
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 1640
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also on this topic is the request to provide MANY options for framelines on the HDMI, HD-SDI, and SDI output for on-set monitoring and Video Assist purposes.

In many TV Shows and Movies shot on film, the entire 35mm frame is exposed with the intent on cropping out the extra area outside the aspect ratio of the desired viewing format(s) in post. The Video Tap on a film camera works by using a small video camera built within the film camera in conjunction with a mirrored shutter. As the shutter spins and is in the open position, all of the light entering the lens strikes the film and creates an exposure. When the shutter is closed, all of the light is reflected off the mirror. The image reflected from the mirror shutter is then split so that part goes to the camera's eyepiece and part goes to the Video Tap's camera. Then the Video Tap system or Video Assist operator can add the desired framelines for the format(s) requested.

This is important to note because the entire full frame exposure can then be viewed by the Director and DP. In many current HD productions, the lack of having this ability of seeing outside the frame has become a hinderance and is the topic of many debates.

If shooting in the Red 2K or 4K modes for HD, the idea would be to use the extra resolution of the sensor for seeing outside the frame and then overlaying traditional framelines. The best option would be if the Camera could record in one format (for example 720 or 1080) while down converting the 2k or 4k area of the sensor to an HD output (HDMI or HD-SDI /SDI) for monitoring. This would be great for Camera Operators, Directors, DPs, and DITs to be able to work as they are already used to in film - seeing outside the frame.

One of the reasons to have framelines is so you can shoot for multiple formats simultaneously. This way the Director and DP can be sure they are meeting the needs of more than one viewing method.

For example, one might wish to shoot for outputting to 1080 for a 16:9 HD Television Broadcast but also have framelines for SD 4:3 to also support SD broadcast or DVD formatting. The Director would need to know that the important action is being completely captured in the 4:3 frame so nothing of importance will be unseen by the SD viewer. It all depends on the desired viewing format(s).

Also, the extra room around the frame in 2k or 4k would be used by the Sound Mixer (as is done constantly on Film shoots) to communicate to the boom operator(s) if the microphone is dipping into the shot. By having extra viewable area around the edges of the shot, the Sound Mixer typically uses one or more small monitors to view the Video Tap with the framelines and will warn the boom operator when the microphone is getting too close, before it ruins a take.

For this reason, down converting 2k or 4k in the camera onto the HDMI or HD-SDI output for use as Video Assist would be most helpful.

As a Guest, you are currently unable to view/download the file attachments in this post.
Please Register or Log In to access attachments.


_________________
Casey Green
RedCam Central Founder
EPIC-M #5XX & #6XX - Rentals Now Available
IMDB Credits


Last edited by RedCam Central on Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
RedCam Central
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 1640
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I'd also add:

I have been a Union member of the local 695 (Sound and Video Engineers) in Los Angeles for the past 4 years. Mainly, I have been doing Video Coordinating and Playback for On-Set Displays (this is when your are controlling playback to video or computer monitors within the scene or shot. Many times working directly with the actors, director, camera operators, and DPs.

There is alot that goes into getting the images to look right, such as syncronizing camera shutters to CRT monitors or genlocking in 24 frame, Color Correction, Playback on Cue, etc. Also, I have done my share of Video Assist, which is a seperate job and involves recording the video output of the camera for instant playback for the Director and DP at the "Video Village". (By the way, one other concern is the length of which the Digital signal can travel coming off the camera. Analogue composite video can travel a very long distance without needing to be amplified, so this has been the standard on Film sets. Many times the Video Assist operator must be very far away from the camera, and this requires long cable runs. I don't believe most HDMI or HD-SDI signals can travel nearly as far as Analogue Composite, and long cables may not exist for certain formats...which may become a problem on set.)

If anyone at Red is interested in visiting a sound stage to see exactly how the Video Assist setups work, and how the Camera and Sound Departments function, let me know and I may be able to accomodate you. I do alot of work on the WB lot. I would think that this kind of information would be extremely valuable to help Red in designing the best workflow possible.

_________________
Casey Green
RedCam Central Founder
EPIC-M #5XX & #6XX - Rentals Now Available
IMDB Credits
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
RedCam Central
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 1640
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More thoughts re: Video Assist setups:

While I think it would be wise to add a composite output, I also respect the reasons for keeping the price down. My concern with the HDMI output mainly regards signal impedance (cable length limitations). Most standard HDMI cables have a signal impedance limit of around 15 feet. Heavier gauge professional HDMI cables have a longer range but max out around 50 feet. This can become a problem in certain production environments when trying to send a signal to a Video Assist cart which may be far off the set, or if the camera location is far away or difficult to get to (such as a Technocrane).

HDMI extender boxes and fiber-optic based HDMI cables are also options, but can be very costly and are probably not going to be available from most Video Assist operator's kits.

I have done some more research and have found a new brand of HDMI cable that is not too costly (~$220), support up to 1080p, and has built in amplification with a range of up to 150 feet, from a company called Accell. (They, of course, make other shorter lengths as well). This is starting to get close to what is required in certain production situations. If anyone is interested, you can check out their products at:

http://www.accellcables.com/products...i_URcable.html

And here is a good article re: HDMI and these new cables.

http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/dec0...ccell/hdmi.htm

Perhaps these cables could be tested in-house. If they work as advertised, they could be a valuable tool for Red users and Video Assist operators and help achieve the workflow we are hoping for.

The HDMI feed would come from the camera (with framelines) and from there, a Miranda box (or other down converter solution) could be used to get Composite Video feeds to other monitors on set which do not require an HD feed or to send to a UHF transmitter.

As a Guest, you are currently unable to view/download the file attachments in this post.
Please Register or Log In to access attachments.


_________________
Casey Green
RedCam Central Founder
EPIC-M #5XX & #6XX - Rentals Now Available
IMDB Credits


Last edited by RedCam Central on Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
RedCam Central
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 1640
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many new announcements about wireless HDMI which would be great on-set as mentioned above for Video Assist and Monitoring.

Here is what Phillips is working on for an uncompressed solution.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/01/12/Philips_makes_wireless_HDMI/

Pretty cool being uncompressed, but the distance needs to be longer to be practical for on set usage.

Here is an upcoming product from Gefen which looks promising (60ft range):

http://sewelldirect.com/Gefen-Wireless-HDMI-Extender-Pre-Order.asp

I'm sure there are more, post 'em if ya got 'em!

As a Guest, you are currently unable to view/download the file attachments in this post.
Please Register or Log In to access attachments.


_________________
Casey Green
RedCam Central Founder
EPIC-M #5XX & #6XX - Rentals Now Available
IMDB Credits
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
RedCam Central
Site Admin


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 1640
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:22 pm    Post subject: Video Assist Update Reply with quote

An update regarding the Video Assist feature Set...

The Monitoring Outputs (EVF, LCD, HDMI, DVI, SDI) will have the following feature set (so far):

SurroundView(tm) - the ability to see around the outside of the recorded frame with multiple choices for frame guidelines. Having this ability in the RED-EVF, just like on an optical viewfinder, is one of the key differences between the RED-EVF and any other electronic view finding systems.

Histogram - RGB histograms that appear under the main image

Waveform - Luma waveform that appears under the main image

Focus "Waveform" - Focus “waveform” that appears under the main image

(Both the EVF and LCD can be connected/functional simultaneously.
The RED-EVF and RED-LCD are driven by a common output from the camera that is expressed on two independent DVI based digital video, power and control interfaces. Both show Surround View, Histograms, Focus Assist, Frame Guides and Camera menus / status.)

As a Guest, you are currently unable to view/download the file attachments in this post.
Please Register or Log In to access attachments.


_________________
Casey Green
RedCam Central Founder
EPIC-M #5XX & #6XX - Rentals Now Available
IMDB Credits
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


RED IS A TRADEMARK OF RED DIGITAL CINEMA. REDCAMCENTRAL IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OR ENDORSED BY RED DIGITAL CINEMA.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Design by GHS
:: Top